GenMin Connection

It's the day before Thanksgiving and I first wante...

2009-11-25T10:59:40.126-05:00

It's the day before Thanksgiving and I first wanted to say how much I appreciate all of you - your friendship, the ministry you have joined in with Jesus, your families and your advice to me throughout the years. May you have a wonderful day of thanks tomorrow.

This discussion has been helpful for me. I think we're all in agreement about Root's use of Influence vs. Leverage. My understanding is that he uses "influence" as a means of reflection of how youth ministry types have used the word throughout the past decade. I have read several youth ministry books over the past 10 years and they use the term influence much as we would use the term leverage and it creates confusion no doubt. To me, in healthy authentic relationships, there will be influence and should be. As my brother Jeffrey told me as a teenager, "don't crave power, seek influence." It certainly doesn't have to mean manipulation. However, to speak to Root's points, I have been guilty (in youth ministry especially) of using my influence to leverage (manipulate) the relationship and expectations. I don't say so proudly but I have done it. I spent nine years as a youth pastor and I was always thinking about how to get a kid from Point A to Point B. If we're not careful, and this is Root's point, we can fail to reveal the power and presence of Christ already at work in their lives because they feel they must get to Point B before power and presence happens.

[Due to my long-windedness on questions 1-3 (I ove...

2009-11-25T00:19:30.257-05:00

[Due to my long-windedness on questions 1-3 (I overstepped the blog length limits), here is my comments for question #4]
4. I’ll share a story going back to my junior high years—to a person who shared my world in a simple but astounding way. I was a very small kid, always the smallest in my class (till I hit a growing spurt in high school). One summer I was taking a lifesaving class to complete a merit badge for Boy Scouts. There was a young adult man who was my primary instructor for the three-week class. He was a good teacher and I wanted to learn. Although I was a good swimmer, being as small as I was it was very difficult for me to swim and tow a limp adult across the pool. The day before the final test, one of the upper-level instructors had watched me struggling hard to do my lifesaving practices. In front of the whole class she told me that I might as well drop out because I’d never be able to pass the final test. She was to be one of the “victims” that we’d have to “save” to pass the class, and she told me she had no intention of cutting me any slack because of my size. I was discouraged. That evening, the man who had been instructing me phoned me, told me he had confidence in my drive and ability, encouraged me to give it my best effort, and said he was confident I would pass the test and earn the certification. Realistically, it was likely that I would fail, but this man stayed in relationship with me and encouraged me. The next day, sure enough, I was matched up to “save” the woman who had belittled me. I dove to the bottom of the pool to get her, I brought her to the surface, I put her into a lifesaving carry, and I kicked and stroked as hard as I could to get her to the side. She struggled to escape from my grasp, but I didn’t let go. She raised her legs out of the water to create extra body weight to try to sink me, but I kept going till I reached the poolside and “saved” her (nearly drowning myself in the process). As best I remember, she looked at me and said something like, “I really didn’t believe you could do this, but you passed the test”—and I got my merit badge. To me, that was an example of a good relationship. The young man instructor had shared his time with me for three weeks, he was aware of my weaknesses, he encouraged me and didn’t give up—he influenced me toward an end result for my own good.

1. Relational ministry to me is: Caring enough ab...

2009-11-25T00:17:56.408-05:00

1. Relational ministry to me is: Caring enough about the person (by the love of God in us) to listen and share all parts of their life, without condemnation---while modeling and encouraging a Jesus lifestyle.
2. The point of camp ministry relationship is to: see question #1. We are successful when we are faithful to offer true relationship and to point to the work of the Father in the Son by the Spirit in the process.
3. This is the first book I've read by Root; I'm halfway through this book. So far, I'm having more of a negative reaction than a positive one to his postulations. While I agree with his premise that we should not enter into a relationship with the sole purpose of twisting arms to reach some preset, narrow, man-devised end result, I am not in agreement with what I've interpreted as Root's use of the term "influence." What is the difference between influence, motivation, leverage, encouragement? Are they the same as manipulation, deception, exploitation? I believe there is a huge gap between these two groups of concepts, but I feel as if Root has lumped them largely together. I believe it’s possible to have an “agenda” and still have a truly relational relationship. In fact, can there really be true, deep relationship without influence? When God created the first humans, put them in the Garden, instructed them which trees to eat from and which to avoid (and why)—did God intend to influence Adam and Eve toward an end result? I think so. Has God continued to exert His influence on humanity over the millennia? Did Jesus demonstrate a life of “pure” relationship devoid of influence toward an end, or in His relationship with mankind did He model, teach and seek to influence us to make a positive and guided response to His love? I agree we shouldn’t dump people when they don’t measure up to our set goals in the timeframe we’ve (wrongly) allowed; God never dumps anyone—ever. But God also is wooing us to His Son, to a specific Person, for specific purposes. He is influencing everyone.
[OK, the blog won't accept the rest of my comment (due to length limitations), so I'll post my comments to question #4 in a separate response].

Jeffrey - thanks for your comment regarding influe...

2009-11-21T23:09:38.416-05:00

Jeffrey - thanks for your comment regarding influence vs. leverage. I was having a bit of trouble over his use of "influence" as well.

I aggree with Jonathan and Emmanuel regarding havi...

2009-11-16T17:57:10.208-05:00

I aggree with Jonathan and Emmanuel regarding having relationships with our youth.

Root reiterates his point several times that "relational youth ministry" is not about "influence" or determining sucess of failure based on "influence". However, positive sincere relationships will of course involve influence. But the intent of the relationship is not based on influence.

This is a good discussion to have so that we may examine why we work with youth and what our expectations should or should not look like.

Let' continue the dicussion as more people weigh in....

I agree with Jonathan and Emmanuel that it is a go...

2009-11-16T18:02:00.829-05:00

I agree with Jonathan and Emmanuel that it is a good idea to examine why we work with our youth.

Root states his premis several times that youth ministry should be "relational" based on wanting to know the "who" of youth and not for the purpose of "influencing" alone.

Root goes on to say that positive sincere relationships of course will involve influence, but the foundation of the relationship is based on wanting to "be with" our youth.

I think this is a very good discussion so that we all may express what our youth ministries shoul look like.

I agree with Jeff, the relationship highlighted at...

2009-11-20T13:34:34.123-05:00

I agree with Jeff, the relationship highlighted at the beginning of the 2nd chapter is not so much about "influence" as it appears to be about one set of individuals not being happy with what they are getting from the other person. They use the term influence but it smacks of something totally different. Not a relationship based on even the basics in Christian growth, but I don't want to get too far ahead of the discussion.

I have definitely seen (and I'm pretty sure I've d...

2009-11-18T21:57:35.136-05:00

I have definitely seen (and I'm pretty sure I've done it myself in the past) where the point of youth ministry has been to get a student from point A to point B. Its hard to not let what is in your heart (who doesn't want a youth to become more Jesus-like) become your motivation.

I do take issue with his condemnation of people who want to separate themselves from those who might be a "negative influence". We all must guard our hearts, especially if we know of places where we might be weak.

I know that wasn't totally the context of the illustration but can be taken the "wrong" way depending how you read it.

While I have not concluded reading the entire book...

2009-11-18T14:31:34.415-05:00

While I have not concluded reading the entire book I have found the substance of Relationships Unfiltered to be excellent when considering the thrust of many (I dare say most) youth ministries and youth ministry tools i have read (and sometimes participated in) over the last 25 years.

I have frankly struggled with the first 4 chapters as I believe Root's premise is semantically flawed even though fine in substance. Usually semantics aren't something to get bent out of shape over but in this case I feel it critical to his very argument.

I believe the term influence has been unnecessarily redefined or misused to be equated with leveraged relationships.

I almost felt like "here we go again" but I am going to have to suspend my filter and simply subsitute "leverage" when Root uses "influence".

When I read "influence" I see its etymology of "flowing into" and not what I would say 'connecting to with a personal agenda'. That is what I see as leveraging and a clear example of inauthentic relationships.

I know we are not there yet but what he describes on page 57 and titles "place sharing" is my definition of authentic two way influence.

I am also trying to filter Root's points through the revelation of the Trinity in both theory and practice. What do I see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit doing in their relationship with each other and with us?

Great discussion guys.

I aggree both with Jonathan and Emmanuel to a larg...

2009-11-16T17:49:24.634-05:00

I aggree both with Jonathan and Emmanuel to a large extent. Root explains that developing a relationship with youth just to influence them is not "relational ministry". Therefore, our intent on youth relationships, in his opinion, should be "sharer". I aggree. Root seems to be addressing those that may not have a grasp of what it means to work with young people.

Root states and re-states this main point several times. At the same time he is careful to explain that as adults we should be willing and able to guide as well as support our youth.

This is a good discussion so that we may be clear about our goals and expectations of what youth ministry should look like.

Let's continue the discussion...

Thanks Ted! Loved the article and can totally rela...

2009-11-12T17:17:07.895-05:00

Thanks Ted! Loved the article and can totally relate to it.

For a vivid illustration of some of Root's youth m...

2009-11-12T17:07:15.085-05:00

For a vivid illustration of some of Root's youth ministry concepts (grounded in a trinitarian theology), check out the article about Jeff McSwain of Reality Ministries at http://www.newsobserver.com/life/story/186332.html

Helpful comments Jonathan and Emmanuel - keep them...

2009-11-11T17:10:16.545-05:00

Helpful comments Jonathan and Emmanuel - keep them coming.

Emmanuel, thanks for mentioning reservations about some of Root's points. We do not expect full acceptance of what he says. Quite the contrary, let's discuss our points of agreement and of disagreement, as we work through some of these concepts together.

Blog on!

1-Relational youth ministry is about being involve...

2009-11-11T14:31:58.081-05:00

1-Relational youth ministry is about being involved with no agenda or seeming supposed outcome. It's about being involved in a young persons life and letting them being involved with yours...no agenda, just being together.

2-In camp ministry (according to the book) the point is simply about being together, there can be no quantifiable "success", just being together. (I think this can be problematic if not understood or taken in proper context). Camp ministry is about "doing", it is an active not passive event. It's an opportunity to enter into someone's life b/c the amount of time we have contact is increased and can therefore be helpful (or hurtful) if we have(or have not) examined and realized why we are involved.

3-Influence and leverage can and will always be problematic in any relationship when motives are called into question. When it comes to ministry there are definite hinderances b/c if we don't see "growth" (rather in numbers or behavior)we can get caught up in the disillusionment of failure or success and not realize the relationship. I, however, also believe we can become paralyzed in not wanting to "influence" and therefore not enter into relationships in a meaningful way.

4-I can't think of any mentoring, et al relationships I have had that were purely relational (maybe my parents).

Overall I am glad we are having this discussion, the book brought up a lot of issues and really does give good food for thought. I never really thought of my ministry relationships with people and what motives I have or may even convey. There are some issues I have with the book and some of it's conclusions but for the most part it has given me an opportunity to understand ministry and relationships in a new and real way. I look forward to the discussion as we go along.

1. Relational youth ministry in my opinion is an a...

2009-11-11T04:06:55.429-05:00

1. Relational youth ministry in my opinion is an adult investing time and energy into the life of an adolescent by entering into their world, building a relationship with them, and being a place sharer ( Andy's term that he gets from Bonhoffer) that is is with them, for them, and faithful to them.

2. Relational youth ministry (whether it be at camp or the local church) is a place to share life and to join them in their suffering and joy.

I agree with Andrew when he says that there is no such thing as success or failure in youth ministry. We are only called to be faithful. Relationships are succesfull when they are unconditional and we never give up on them.

3.Andrew believes that relationships that are based on influence are very threatening to youth ministry. I would agree. We don't build relationships to lead people to Jesus. That would mean that Jesus is somewhere else and He is absent from the relationship. But if we believe that Jesus is actually present within the relationship, it takes away the pressure of trying to lead them somewhere and we can focus on the person and connect with them with no hidden motive or secret agenda.

4. A lot of my friends do. I can only think of one adult. He was my mentor before I moved to Colorado four years ago. A lot of adults in my home church worked with me, but he was really the only person that really did it right. He entered into my world, understood me and always supported me.

Thanks for the comment Jerome. I can't speak fo...

2009-09-22T13:49:49.767-04:00

Thanks for the comment Jerome.

I can't speak for the author, but I imagine he'd comment in reply that the explosion of the church in certain parts of the world is reflective of two things:

1. A "cultural landscape" very different from our own.

2. Church structures in those locations where growth is happening that exhibit greater flexibility in the face of cultural shifts.

Of course, from our Christian perspective, we would add to the equation the sovereign will and work of the Spirit who reforms and revives the church and who calls non-believers to faith.

That being said, I think there is much to learn from his post - particularly concerning the importance of having *flexible structures* that allow for adaptation to cultural change (which, as he notes, is rapidly accelerating in our context).

These are big challenges, but we serve a very big God!

My comment is that the presenter at the Willow Cre...

2009-09-22T13:32:39.581-04:00

My comment is that the presenter at the Willow Creek conference was refering to problems encountered by American churches. Not European churches, which are already moribund. What is the situation with southern hemisphere churches, which are exploding? What can we learn from these areas, where most of the Christians on earth now live? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are working everywhere - are we being too myopic in focusing on the American experience?

Root helps us "exegete" the emerging post-modern, ...

2009-08-28T08:16:04.153-04:00

Root helps us "exegete" the emerging post-modern, post-Christiandom culture. As he notes, the categories that frame thinking (and relating) in that culture are not the ones with which we are conversant in the modern culture.

We see this played out within the church as it is challenged to reach beyond its modernist bearings to share the timeless gospel with the emerging post-modern culture.

Sadly, much about the gospel has been subsumed under modernist cultural "baggage" - we must shed that baggage, and then beware taking on a new set (post-modern cultural baggage).

But having said that, we need to hear with open ears and compassionate, understanding hearts the post-modern conversation so that we may join in the conversation, bringing the gospel of God's grace in the person of Jesus.

Thanks for sharing another great resource Ted. I'm...

2009-08-06T17:17:10.850-04:00

Thanks for sharing another great resource Ted. I'm looking forward to "unpacking" the material.

Hi, I would like to share with you a good ebook ...

2009-07-12T08:56:09.641-04:00

Hi,

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They would also like to invite you to view our video on this topic at
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Feel free to share this with your friends or people you care

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Thanks,

I believe Jeff has a good heart and Loves Jesus an...

2009-06-07T00:05:41.331-04:00

I believe Jeff has a good heart and Loves Jesus and others. I don't agree with his viewpoint and interpretation of God's grace and the "reality" of repentance. When we repent it does not change God's mind.... God always loves us and desires us. However, it is a change in our minds (the individual).. to turn toward Jesus to "accept" God's grace. A relationship with God is a two way street. God has done his part and offered us unconditional love and acceptance. We need to do our part to "believe" that and accept God's free gift. That is the "reality" of salvation. Jesus dying made salvation available to all people regardless of their sin. It is up to the individual to accept that salvation. I am not saying the acceptence of that salvation is always an "event"... in most cases it is more accurately defined as a process.... but a point of acceptence exists... whether that takes place in a moment or over time. Jeff's viewpoint seems to operate under the assumption that we don't need to make any effort to accept God's offer of grace through Jesus (or even be aware it exists).

It's very encouraging to hear of the Crosswalk suc...

2009-05-27T12:13:36.135-04:00

It's very encouraging to hear of the Crosswalk success. We had a great experience at The Mountaintop this past Memorial Day weekend. The volunteer staff was outstanding and the core leadership team worked tirelessly for weeks to plan and prepare a great event. All praise to Jesus for moving in the hearts of those passionate people.

I had the privilege of visiting CrossWalk. It was,...

2009-05-26T17:21:37.736-04:00

I had the privilege of visiting CrossWalk. It was, as usual, a fun, inspiring and Christ-centered experience. Kudos to Mike & Juli Rasmussen, Mike & Michelle Urmie, and all the CrossWalk staff. Their devotion to Jesus and to his kids is truly amazing.

Well said, Ted! These are definitely the sort of i...

2009-03-27T17:32:00.000-04:00

Well said, Ted! These are definitely the sort of issues we need to think about as we live in community with younger generations.

A friend of mine replied to this post noting that ...

2009-02-26T07:27:00.000-05:00

A friend of mine replied to this post noting that he is part of a new church plant that is successfully engaging young adults. Here are some of the things he observes them doing:

• People are loving us through a very difficult time of life; that’s the most important thing.

• The décor appeals to me — dark, candles, lots of art on the walls made by artists in the church. Some of them actually set up their easels in the worship room and work all through the service. When a work gets finished, they get sermon time to present their work to the community, talk about it, and take questions about it.

• The ancient-ness of the Christian faith (and its practices) are presented as a positive thing.

• To not have childcare at a church activity is inconceivable.

• We don’t own our own building, so we have very few overhead costs. I like how that feels.

• We are encouraged to let our diverse political views interact together with the political implications of Jesus’ teaching.

• The songs we sing include the sad, dark parts of Christian life. I love being able to sing laments as well as praises. Church is a space for me to be honest about how disappointed I am in God sometimes.

• Every service is centered around Word and Sacrament, and Baptisms are huge community celebrations.

• Sermons are substantive, and they address topics that are relevant and often controversial.

• Movies are a big part of our language at the church; it’s the common ground of everyone, regardless of our beliefs.

• There’s no such things as membership. You’re either there or you’re not.

• Many of the people who are there every week are not Christians, and we see this as a positive, not a negative. The gospel is the topic of conversation, but their viewpoints are fully part of that conversation.